« a state that's untouchable like elliot ness | Main | mailbag, 2/20/2005 »
February 18, 2005
i'm tired of rumors starting
apparently the michigan law student assigned to me took the lazy way out. instead of calling me, she just dropped me an email. i can't complain, however, with the thirty minute turn around time on her email. in response to my question about michigan law in relation to chicago and texas, she writes:
About Chicago and Texas, clearly I have a bias, but I have the following: Chicago - While Chicago has a great ranking and a great reputation, it is an extremely conservative school. Michigan is extremely liberal. So, depending on your personal political philosophy, that might matter to you. Location-wise, UChicago is in the crappiest (and one of the most dangerous) parts of Chicago, buts its in Chicago (where I'm from - an awesome city). Michigan is in the boon docks (lets be honest), but its a gorgeous little college town thats actually pretty cosmopolitan for a college town. The closest city is Detroit, and no one wants to hang out there. But, you are 45 minutes away from Canada's Windsor, which is a fun little town. Regarding collegiality, I would say Michigan beats Chicago, and any other "top ten" school, hands down. The people here are not psychotic competitive law students. Although this, again, is hearsay, I've heard horror stories about students undermining other students and sabotaging their success at Chicago. I think the best way to tell is go visit and talk to people on campus. Lastly, Chicago puts out more "academics" than Michigan. What I mean is, if you're planning to be a law professor, you might have a better shot at Chicago. On the other hand, I've talked to law firm recruiters in Chicago who say that they would hire a Michigan Law grad over a Chicago grad with higher grades based on the lack of ego and general social capabilities of Michigan grads (ie. not socially inept).
Texas - Don't know anything about the school, but I'll just say that its regional. So, if you're sure (and I mean absolutely sure, b/c there's no going back) that you want to stay in Texas after graduation, it might be a good idea considering the savings in cost. If you want to go somewhere else later, it would be difficult. I would think you'd need to be in the top 10 or 20% in your class to make a Texas J.D. portable to other big cities. Also, keep in mind the recruiting situation. Ask the Texas Law people to send you a list of the firms that came to Texas to recruit. While you're at it, do the same for Chicago and Michigan. The opportunities available through on campus recruiting should not be underestimated. That being said, Texas is probably a hell of a lot warmer than it is here right now.
i'm convinced that every school carries with it generations worth of unfriendly insinuations involving stolen library books, incessant backstabbing, and gladiatorial duels. if such rumors don't exist about your school, then guess what? you guys are starting them.
actually my undergraduate institution also maintains something of a cutthroat reputation, but i found the actual experience quite contrary to such back-fence babble. much to my relief, it turned out that i was the only one who was hiding library books and setting fire to professors' mailboxes. i took those suckers to school. yo shorty, what's really good?
Posted by foxes in correspondences at February 18, 2005 07:01 PM
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you are going to mich. end of story. c'mon, we'll go out and blow our $5K on pixie stix! what could be more fun?
Posted by: adverseeffect at February 18, 2005 09:13 PM
Those rumors always make me laugh. When we had our first assignment to research something in the library, me and a classmate tracked down the book we needed and to our surprise, not only had someone before us folded the page we needed, but they underlined and starred the passage we would need. Not so cutthroat!
Posted by: Law-rah at February 19, 2005 09:49 AM
Hmm, this rumors-starting action isn't so hot.
Zearfoss also explicitly instructed us in making these contacts NOT to say anything negative about any other school, which I think is the right way to go about doing things.
If this person actually knew somebody at Chicago--rather than merely relying on the standard "ooh, Chicago, I hear they have cooties & cutthroat-itis" line--that might be different.
I worked with a guy who went to UChicago undergrad, and wanted to return to Chicago for law school. He didn't even apply to UChicago & is now at Northwestern. You can decide what that means.
Anyhow, let me just second what she had to say about Michigan--it's an extremely friendly place, and it totally blew away all the many law school phobias I'd built up from reading blogs, books like LS Confidential, etc.
The other big key for me in choosing Michigan was something else she mentioned--the job aspect. Be sure to look at not only the #s of recruiters & their locations to a given school, but try to find a map/geographical breakdown of where their grads end up (Mich has one here, which I actually like less than their old one, which included 5 years' worth of stats.
My choice essentially came down to Michigan & Penn, and when I saw that something like 80 to 90% of Penn grads were going to NYC or Philly, while I was [and am] leaning toward DC, Chicago, or SF, I decided that maybe Penn wasn't the best fit for me, personally.
Anyhow, best of luck with the search. It's been amusing reading & re-living.
Posted by: J at February 19, 2005 02:22 PM
Hmm, I can't seem to the link to show up using html--at least on your preview function. Anyhow, the url is here:
http://www.law.umich.edu/currentstudents/careerservices/grad-geo.htm
Posted by: J at February 19, 2005 02:28 PM
i am sorry to hear that you got paired with such a lame michigan student who has nothing to offer you except trite platitudes. ohhhh... hyde park... scary... michgan-liberal... chicago-conservative... what a waste of your time.
texas is not a regional school. they place quite well nationally. furthermore, i would contend that penn should not be forgotten in terms of collegiality. we do not get gpa's, nor are we ranked. this helps cut down on the nefarious law school behavior.
if you have the time and money, go visit the schools and really get a sense of the place. while i do not pretend to have all the answers, the best advice i could offer is figure out what outcomes are important to you (where you want to work; academics/private practice; location, etc). once you know what you want the decision is much easier.
you have excellent options before you. best of luck.
Posted by: japhy at February 20, 2005 03:16 PM
yeah i definitely got a good vibe at chicago and would like to visit the other schools. i'm in the process of trying to get texas to pay for my flight to austin for admitted students weekend. i'd like to check these places out and see what's the dillio. but yeah, i'm going to definitely try to use my brain in deciding where to go to school. thanks for all advice; it is, and continues to be helpful.
Posted by: foxes at February 20, 2005 06:06 PM
As someone else noted, Michigan's Admissions Director specifically instructed student volunteers to avoid disparaging other schools. Unfortunately, it isn't possible to screen all of the students who want to help sell the school. As a current Michigan student (2L), I agree with her enthusiasm for the school, but disagree with her on just about everything else.
Michigan is very friendly and collegial, perhaps more so than many other top ten schools. But my intuition tells me that most people at most places are looking to meet others and want to get along. I think it would be difficult for a student anywhere to reliably gauge the social environment at another school, except through second-hand knowledge. I can tell you, however, that Michigan's alumni network is amazing, and not just for its size. When I was interviewing for summer BigLaw work, Michigan Law alumni really made a special effort to help me out. It was impressive and makes me look forward to returning the favor for someone in the future.
Politically, I find it extremely odd to characterize Michigan as "liberal" and Chicago as "conservative" with no further analysis. Law classes are about the law, not generally about politics. And as far as individuals, Michigan's students (in the law school, at least) are very politically diverse.
I chose Michigan over Stanford and Chicago (as well as a few other schools) for the quality of the faculty, my very positive subjective impression, and my love of Ann Arbor (which, for its size, is full of surprises). I haven't been disappointed. I'm going back to Chicago (where I'm from) after law school, but it was worth the wait.
I don't think you can go wrong with your options.
Posted by: elo at February 21, 2005 01:55 AM
Hi, I'm the one who sent the e-mail to ------. I just wanted to say sorry for any misunderstanding that I was Chicago bashing. Looking back at the e-mail, I can see how it can look that way. I was asked the following question by ------: "I realize this will be hearsay, but I was wondering if you could compare/contrast/evalulate Michigan in relation to Chicago and Texas (where I get to pay in-state tuition)?" I understood the tone of the question to mean that I should give my opinion, for whatever its worth. You should note that that was my personal opinion, and not that of the school's. Anyway, I stand by the theme of my e-mail of visiting the schools and picking the one thats right for you. Sorry again for any ill feelings I've caused....
Posted by: Reena at February 21, 2005 12:22 PM
Your pal at U of M is probably not the best source of information for you. Besides his ignorance regarding the U of C, labeling UT a "regional" law school does not do it justice.
All potential law students would like to have your problems. Try to visit the schools you are interested in. Ask the students you meet questions about their schools (the only question you should bother asking them about other schools is why they choose school X over their other choices - maybe you will get an honest answer, maybe not).
U of C is known for a particular take on the law (thus, the label of it being a "conservative" school). Of course, by now you should know that. Placing the school within a traditional liberal/conservative dichotomy without understanding why, however, as your Michigan advisor seems to have done.
You will be able to get a good clerkship from any of these schools, and will be able to build the kind of career that you would like (or, maybe detest). Enjoy your bounty of riches. Once you make a decision in the fall, it will not mean a thing. Instead, you will have much work ahead of you. Congrats and good luck.
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